CMC’s Glass Ceiling in College Rankings

By Nico Brancolini | April 26, 2010 at 8:00 am | Opinion | 78 comments | |

 

With the recent release of the admissions statistics for the Claremont McKenna College class of 2014, the sordid topic of “ranking” has once again entered our collective conscience. I would love to see CMC’s ranking break into the top 10 for liberal arts colleges, but our humble school’s ranking does not have good chance at going up unless it diversifies its academic programs and devotes more resources to majors outside of economics and government.

It might seem obvious the lack of academic diversity among the student body is holding our school back.  We are a specialized school masquerading as a liberal arts college, but too many people are not being fooled.  I don’t blame the students for this; it’s just a vicious cycle.  Our school emphasizes the government and economics programs when recruiting students.  The technique seems to be working as we get many students from across the county and around the world who are interested in these areas.  Where we are less successful is appealing to students with other interests.

I actually think that this government and economics emphasis is part of the reason we suffer a lack of name recognition.  There are plenty of smart kids across the country whose interests lie in the humanities  –history, literature, film and all sorts of other great majors precede grad school.  Those students are not looking at CMC.  Maybe they stumble across it when they visit Pomona, but unless there is some family connection or other extenuating circumstance, CMC is unlikely to appeal to them over our sister to the south if their academic interests do not conform to our reputation.

College rankings will be released just a month before new students matriculate.

College rankings are released just three months after new students matriculate.

Another sad truth is we do not even have a monopoly on people who are interested in government and economics.  We are competing with Ivy League schools for those students; I think you would be hard-pressed to find a student interested in government who would select CMC over Harvard University if admitted to both.  I say this not because I think Harvard has a better government program; in fact I suspect the opposite, given students there have poor access to professors and classes taught by teaching assistants.  But name recognition does count for something, particularly in government.

I transferred here from George Washington University in Washington D.C. for my sophomore year.  My friends back home in Indiana had all heard of GW and were impressed by it, but when I informed them I planned to transfer to CMC, they were shocked.  None of them were familiar with the school.  I also considered transferring to USC, and all my friends back home were partial to me becoming a Trojan simply because they had more familiarity with the school. I think objective analysis would show CMC to be more academically rigorous than either GW or USC, but that is not the perception.  GW, USC and Harvard are large research institutions.  They are inevitably going to be better known, but even within liberal arts colleges we are not especially well known.

Ultimately, I think we as a school need to consider expanding and committing resources to our other programs if we want to further increase our name recognition and rankings.  We need to make a concerted effort to better support departments like history and psychology that have broader appeal, but our recent track record is poor.

Professor Arash Khazeni in the Middle Eastern studies department was recently denied tenure without explanation.  The Iranian born Khazeni, who has taught at CMC since 2003, has a masters and doctorate from Yale.  His book was published early this year by the University of Washington Press, and he is well-liked by students.  Still, he was snubbed.  His background brought a wonderfully unique perspective to students and I, for one, would like to know exactly why the tenure review panel denied us such a great asset at our school.  With this in mind, why would any student looking to study Middle Eastern studies choose our newly minted program when its star faculty member was not even given tenure?

The best way to increase our ranking and our school’s prestige is to diversify.  Isn’t that what our stock-broker friends would recommend?  If we truly want our school’s rankings to go up, the student body should encourage more resource allocation to programs that will bring in more diverse students.  The only other option is to settle with our good– not phenomenal– ranking within the world of liberal arts colleges.

 
 
 
  • Andrew Bluebond

    Nico,

    I have just a couple comments.

    – “Certainly we have other majors at CMC—I study the enthralling subject of American Studies—but in general people who are not government or economics majors first came to this school undeclared.” — Is this true? I have never heard it before. Is there data to support this?
    – I am not clear on whether you think we should diversify because it’s good in and of itself, because it will help our rankings, or both. You should try to clarify this in the beginning.

  • Nico or Niko??

    Who is this Nico Brancolini and why wasn’t he or she writing for the forum long ago?!

  • Nico or Niko??

    Who is this Nico Brancolini and why wasn’t he or she writing for the forum long ago?!

  • dumb

    Here’s the truth about this article:

    You are self-conscious about going to a college that people haven’t heard of. We’ve all had that experience. Someone asks where you go to school and you say, Claremont McKenna College and you feel you have to qualify it, like, “a small, liberal arts college in the Los Angeles area.” or the person says, “Claremont Mechanics College? Where’s that?” or some variation on the above.

    For those of us that were valedictorians and what not, it is sometimes a hard pill to swallow for people to not bow down in admiration of our current academic achievement.

    What I would say though is that the solution to this problem is not for CMC to diversify so that we can become higher ranked and better known.

    The solution is for you to get over it. CMC is an awesome academic institution as it is. If you don’t feel it meets your needs, don’t go here. But the truth is, it is near impossible that CMC would not have the diversity of academics available to satisfy your needs, because you can enroll in classes and even major at the other colleges. I know people that have majored in geology, and CMC doesn’t even have a geology department. One of these people chose to go to CMC over Pomona though (they got into both) because they liked the culture and attitude of CMC better.

    Finally, I would like to say that in the end it doesn’t matter that you went to a college no one heard of. You got a better college experience than almost anyone in the country in the end. That’s what matters.

    Most of us will end up going to grad school eventually (as is true of all small liberal arts graduates), and grad schools know about CMC. Many of us will get jobs, and highly prestigious employers know about CMC and recruit here. In the end, if you need to assuage your ego, you’ll be able to do it with your job title and your grad school eventually. In the mean time, you can rest assured thinking that even if people haven’t heard of CMC, you are still having a better college experience than anybody else. You don’t need the whole world to know this is true for you to enjoy it.

    One last note: attracting enough students to be interested in CMC is clearly not an issue. If you look at straight percentage of student accepted, CMC is always has one of the lowest 2 or 3 percentages in the country. We are attracting far more applicants for the number of spots we have than almost any other liberal arts college in the country.

    • agreed

      I usually agree with Nico’s musings but I think you make a good point. I think a lot of our applicants view our lack of name recognition among their peers as a bit of a negative. But grad schools and employers know us. Thats all that really matters. I didn’t go to a great school so I could impress my friends. I went so I could get a great education, and impress my future employers :)

      On that note, I don’t feel diversifying our curriculum is needed. Each of the other 4Cs offer great programs in these more liberal art fields, and we can take full advantage of them. I never had a problem finding a good non GE history, psych, lit, etc. class.

      • Good Lit. @ CMC

        I actually think that CMC has one of the best and most challenging lit. departments out of all the 5C’s. The dept. may not receive the same recognition as the econ. or gov. dept.’s, but as a non-CMC student, I take at least one class there a semester, simply for the rigor.

    • Jillian

      Whoa, harsh.

      Yes, we attract a certain number – and that number is growing – but there is a lot we can do to improve CMC.

      I’m an IR major and even though IR is close to the gov/econ core of CMC, when I walk into the career services office, people look confused. The career services office is much better at placing econ/accounting students with great internships than anyone else. They have made progress, though, and are continuing to find more internships to post on career services emails, like the journalism fellowship and film internship (both recent on the newsletter).

      That’s just one indicator, but really – I came here thinking about an IR/Econ or PPE degree and when I found out that I actually hated Econ and accounting, it was a little tougher to transition into other subjects. The philosophy program is heavily shared among all five colleges; the religious studies program (I’m now IR/RLST) is only just taking off; the literature department is quite good, but I can see myself taking many major classes off campus.

      I love CMC and I love going here no matter how many times my extended family has asked me why I am attending a community college in SoCal (they do this frequently). By no means was I my high school valedictorian, either.

      In fact, I’m not so much concerned with CMC’s reputation as I am with the relatively few options there are for dual majoring.

      I agree with you that rankings aren’t the end goal, but I think that balance is key and attending to the needs of all students (not just econ/gov) is essential.

  • dumb

    Here’s the truth about this article:

    You are self-conscious about going to a college that people haven’t heard of. We’ve all had that experience. Someone asks where you go to school and you say, Claremont McKenna College and you feel you have to qualify it, like, “a small, liberal arts college in the Los Angeles area.” or the person says, “Claremont Mechanics College? Where’s that?” or some variation on the above.

    For those of us that were valedictorians and what not, it is sometimes a hard pill to swallow for people to not bow down in admiration of our current academic achievement.

    What I would say though is that the solution to this problem is not for CMC to diversify so that we can become higher ranked and better known.

    The solution is for you to get over it. CMC is an awesome academic institution as it is. If you don’t feel it meets your needs, don’t go here. But the truth is, it is near impossible that CMC would not have the diversity of academics available to satisfy your needs, because you can enroll in classes and even major at the other colleges. I know people that have majored in geology, and CMC doesn’t even have a geology department. One of these people chose to go to CMC over Pomona though (they got into both) because they liked the culture and attitude of CMC better.

    Finally, I would like to say that in the end it doesn’t matter that you went to a college no one heard of. You got a better college experience than almost anyone in the country in the end. That’s what matters.

    Most of us will end up going to grad school eventually (as is true of all small liberal arts graduates), and grad schools know about CMC. Many of us will get jobs, and highly prestigious employers know about CMC and recruit here. In the end, if you need to assuage your ego, you’ll be able to do it with your job title and your grad school eventually. In the mean time, you can rest assured thinking that even if people haven’t heard of CMC, you are still having a better college experience than anybody else. You don’t need the whole world to know this is true for you to enjoy it.

    One last note: attracting enough students to be interested in CMC is clearly not an issue. If you look at straight percentage of student accepted, CMC is always has one of the lowest 2 or 3 percentages in the country. We are attracting far more applicants for the number of spots we have than almost any other liberal arts college in the country.

    • agreed

      I usually agree with Nico’s musings but I think you make a good point. I think a lot of our applicants view our lack of name recognition among their peers as a bit of a negative. But grad schools and employers know us. Thats all that really matters. I didn’t go to a great school so I could impress my friends. I went so I could get a great education, and impress my future employers :)

      On that note, I don’t feel diversifying our curriculum is needed. Each of the other 4Cs offer great programs in these more liberal art fields, and we can take full advantage of them. I never had a problem finding a good non GE history, psych, lit, etc. class.

      • Good Lit. @ CMC

        I actually think that CMC has one of the best and most challenging lit. departments out of all the 5C’s. The dept. may not receive the same recognition as the econ. or gov. dept.’s, but as a non-CMC student, I take at least one class there a semester, simply for the rigor.

    • Jillian

      Whoa, harsh.

      Yes, we attract a certain number – and that number is growing – but there is a lot we can do to improve CMC.

      I’m an IR major and even though IR is close to the gov/econ core of CMC, when I walk into the career services office, people look confused. The career services office is much better at placing econ/accounting students with great internships than anyone else. They have made progress, though, and are continuing to find more internships to post on career services emails, like the journalism fellowship and film internship (both recent on the newsletter).

      That’s just one indicator, but really – I came here thinking about an IR/Econ or PPE degree and when I found out that I actually hated Econ and accounting, it was a little tougher to transition into other subjects. The philosophy program is heavily shared among all five colleges; the religious studies program (I’m now IR/RLST) is only just taking off; the literature department is quite good, but I can see myself taking many major classes off campus.

      I love CMC and I love going here no matter how many times my extended family has asked me why I am attending a community college in SoCal (they do this frequently). By no means was I my high school valedictorian, either.

      In fact, I’m not so much concerned with CMC’s reputation as I am with the relatively few options there are for dual majoring.

      I agree with you that rankings aren’t the end goal, but I think that balance is key and attending to the needs of all students (not just econ/gov) is essential.

  • Drew

    Is Nico Brancolini a pseudonym for Pam Gann?

  • Drew

    Is Nico Brancolini a pseudonym for Pam Gann?

  • Nico

    A few points of clarification:
    I am fine with our ranking as is, but the school’s administration clearly is concerned with increasing out school’s ranking within U.S. News and World Report (case in point; dogmatic approach to fall class caps versus spring classes) and if the school is serious about increasing its ranking than I think it needs to diversify.
    I would be remise to not acknowledge that I do sometimes get tired of explaining to people what CMC is (particularly when I was abroad and someone insisted that I should have gone to Villanova instead because it is a better school) but in all honesty I am not too worried about it and it definitely is not something I lose sleep over.
    Lastly, something that I do not address enough in this article is that I think there is an advantage to having diverse academic interests on our campus. Yes Pomona, Pitzer, Mudd, and Scripps offer that to an extent, but it is rare for people’s best friends to be at other schools. In general, freshman or whatever year, you become friendly with your neighbors in the dorm and people you meet at orientation—not students from other schools. I am not saying devote tons of resources to building obscure departments, but I am saying there is nothing wrong with having a little more interest in other majors at CMC itself like the history department (hence my point on Khazeni).
    Ultimately I think it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion for the student body to make that we are fine with the academics at CMC as they stand and insist that nothing needs to change. However that does not mean that a little reflection on the matter every once in a while is dumb or a bad thing hence my article.

    P.S. I am not Pam Gann, but I did play her once in a Lifetime original movie

  • Nico

    A few points of clarification:
    I am fine with our ranking as is, but the school’s administration clearly is concerned with increasing out school’s ranking within U.S. News and World Report (case in point; dogmatic approach to fall class caps versus spring classes) and if the school is serious about increasing its ranking than I think it needs to diversify.
    I would be remise to not acknowledge that I do sometimes get tired of explaining to people what CMC is (particularly when I was abroad and someone insisted that I should have gone to Villanova instead because it is a better school) but in all honesty I am not too worried about it and it definitely is not something I lose sleep over.
    Lastly, something that I do not address enough in this article is that I think there is an advantage to having diverse academic interests on our campus. Yes Pomona, Pitzer, Mudd, and Scripps offer that to an extent, but it is rare for people’s best friends to be at other schools. In general, freshman or whatever year, you become friendly with your neighbors in the dorm and people you meet at orientation—not students from other schools. I am not saying devote tons of resources to building obscure departments, but I am saying there is nothing wrong with having a little more interest in other majors at CMC itself like the history department (hence my point on Khazeni).
    Ultimately I think it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion for the student body to make that we are fine with the academics at CMC as they stand and insist that nothing needs to change. However that does not mean that a little reflection on the matter every once in a while is dumb or a bad thing hence my article.

    P.S. I am not Pam Gann, but I did play her once in a Lifetime original movie

  • JC

    @dumb

    if I read this as Nico intended, I’d have to disagree that it’s an ego issue.

    A specialized culture of homogeneity tends to breed close-mindedness and diverges from the “global” approach that CMC so dearly covets. Although I do appreciate being around like-minded individuals, I’d have to admit that the institution should strive for a greater diversity of opinions. Even if you don’t believe that name-recognition is of the essence, you must surely understand that more noteworthy academic programs would attract a broader audience and would in turn contribute to an enhanced college experience and further “brand” recognition.

  • JC

    @dumb

    if I read this as Nico intended, I’d have to disagree that it’s an ego issue.

    A specialized culture of homogeneity tends to breed close-mindedness and diverges from the “global” approach that CMC so dearly covets. Although I do appreciate being around like-minded individuals, I’d have to admit that the institution should strive for a greater diversity of opinions. Even if you don’t believe that name-recognition is of the essence, you must surely understand that more noteworthy academic programs would attract a broader audience and would in turn contribute to an enhanced college experience and further “brand” recognition.

  • simulacric_bro

    This is possibly the dumbest article I have ever read. Who gives a shit about the US News and World Report rankings which only matter when we measure our dicks against other college student? The only measure–the only thing that has ever mattered–is what people in the business and grad school worlds think of cmc. And there we have a great reputations precisely because we’re specialized.

    Become like everyone else, and we’re just a watered down version of Pomona–still a liberal arts school that no one’s heard of but without the skills and specialized network to do things with it.

  • simulacric_bro

    This is possibly the dumbest article I have ever read. Who gives a shit about the US News and World Report rankings which only matter when we measure our dicks against other college student? The only measure–the only thing that has ever mattered–is what people in the business and grad school worlds think of cmc. And there we have a great reputations precisely because we’re specialized.

    Become like everyone else, and we’re just a watered down version of Pomona–still a liberal arts school that no one’s heard of but without the skills and specialized network to do things with it.

  • Anna K

    Prof Khazeni is amazing and absolutely, incredibly passionate about his subject ! I can’t believe they denied him tenure. Do they even consult students on choosing professors? I took his Environmental History of the Middle East seminar (as a GE) – a field that is just being “born” and of which, I dare to say, he is a pioneer in.
    Petition? Does he still get to stay and teach?

  • Anna K

    Prof Khazeni is amazing and absolutely, incredibly passionate about his subject ! I can’t believe they denied him tenure. Do they even consult students on choosing professors? I took his Environmental History of the Middle East seminar (as a GE) – a field that is just being “born” and of which, I dare to say, he is a pioneer in.
    Petition? Does he still get to stay and teach?

  • Go elsewhere

    If you don’t like the fact that the other departments are service departments to government and economics, kindly go elsewhere.

  • Go elsewhere

    If you don’t like the fact that the other departments are service departments to government and economics, kindly go elsewhere.

  • Kelsey Brown

    I think both sides make a good argument, and I agree with Nico that this is a matter that we should at least have conversation about.

    Recently, while talking on the phone with a father of a prospective student, he brought up our lack of national recognition as a large concern. His daughter was interested in pursuing a government major and is/was (I’m not sure what the outcome was) deciding between CMC, Yale and Georgetown. I gave him the whole spiel about how CMC offers a much more unique college experience. I think I finally sold him when I told him about our fabulous career services center.

    But the point is that we should consider how many other people are out there that are thinking the same thing as that father: “I’m paying for my daughter’s education and if she got into the Ivies why should she go to Claremont Mc-What? College?”

    But, it is also important to note that GW was established in 1826, USC in 1880, and Claremont Men’s College in 1946. We don’t have time on our side yet, either.

    • bulldog

      wow, you talked someone out of going to yale. amazing

  • Kelsey Brown

    I think both sides make a good argument, and I agree with Nico that this is a matter that we should at least have conversation about.

    Recently, while talking on the phone with a father of a prospective student, he brought up our lack of national recognition as a large concern. His daughter was interested in pursuing a government major and is/was (I’m not sure what the outcome was) deciding between CMC, Yale and Georgetown. I gave him the whole spiel about how CMC offers a much more unique college experience. I think I finally sold him when I told him about our fabulous career services center.

    But the point is that we should consider how many other people are out there that are thinking the same thing as that father: “I’m paying for my daughter’s education and if she got into the Ivies why should she go to Claremont Mc-What? College?”

    But, it is also important to note that GW was established in 1826, USC in 1880, and Claremont Men’s College in 1946. We don’t have time on our side yet, either.

    • bulldog

      wow, you talked someone out of going to yale. amazing

  • A caveat about Khazeni

    One piece of anecdotal evidence to support the decision to deny Khazeni’s tenure:

    When I took a course with him, he was undeniably passionate about the material and wonderfully kind. As a person, he is truly wonderful.

    Unfortunately, as a professor, he was a classic coddler. He inflated grades (noticeably more so than in any other course I took at CMC), he was quick to hand out praise, he was reticent to offer criticism, and the readings were at an elementary level. While his personal musings offered some insight into the topic of the course, it was primarily my independent research that taught me about the subject.

    I like him as a person and I trust his knowledge of the subject matter, but I, for one, do not believe his teaching abilities warrant tenure.

  • A caveat about Khazeni

    One piece of anecdotal evidence to support the decision to deny Khazeni’s tenure:

    When I took a course with him, he was undeniably passionate about the material and wonderfully kind. As a person, he is truly wonderful.

    Unfortunately, as a professor, he was a classic coddler. He inflated grades (noticeably more so than in any other course I took at CMC), he was quick to hand out praise, he was reticent to offer criticism, and the readings were at an elementary level. While his personal musings offered some insight into the topic of the course, it was primarily my independent research that taught me about the subject.

    I like him as a person and I trust his knowledge of the subject matter, but I, for one, do not believe his teaching abilities warrant tenure.

  • Recruiters?

    Whoever said recruiters know us, thats just not true. For a school that claims to be specialized in Econ/Finance (which I am completely fine with by the way), we are not a target school of any bulge bracket bank. Our recruiting is getting better as our alumni’s reach higher positions, however as of now it is sub par. I agree CMC needs more name recognition, but the way to get it isnt through becoming more of a liberal school. We should become more specialized.

  • Recruiters?

    Whoever said recruiters know us, thats just not true. For a school that claims to be specialized in Econ/Finance (which I am completely fine with by the way), we are not a target school of any bulge bracket bank. Our recruiting is getting better as our alumni’s reach higher positions, however as of now it is sub par. I agree CMC needs more name recognition, but the way to get it isnt through becoming more of a liberal school. We should become more specialized.

  • disagree

    I disagree with the basic idea of this article. CMC was founded on the basis of educating students for careers in governments and business with a grounding in the liberal arts.

    CMC’s mission: Claremont McKenna College is a highly selective, independent, coeducational, residential, undergraduate liberal arts college. Its mission, within the mutually supportive framework of The Claremont Colleges, is to educate its students for thoughtful and productive lives and responsible leadership in business, government, and the professions, and to support faculty and student scholarship that contribute to intellectual vitality and the understanding of public policy issues. The College pursues this mission by providing a liberal arts education that emphasizes economics and political science, a professoriat that is dedicated to effective undergraduate teaching, a close student-teacher relationship that fosters critical inquiry, an active residential and intellectual environment that promotes responsible citizenship, and a program of research institutes and scholarly support that makes possible a faculty of teacher-scholars.

    While we should strive to make other departments better, trying to shift the fundamental goal of the curriculum and environment at CMC would be a huge mistake. It’s better if we sit lower in the rankings and keep our identity and our unique approach to a liberal arts education than try to cater to the East Coast liberal arts elite. If a student is truly interested in studying humanities in the traditional liberal arts sense, CMC is not the school for him/her.

    @recruiters?: Last I checked, 6 CMC seniors are going to work at bulge bracket banks + 3 at elite boutiques (though I will acknowledge no thanks to career services for any of those).

  • disagree

    I disagree with the basic idea of this article. CMC was founded on the basis of educating students for careers in governments and business with a grounding in the liberal arts.

    CMC’s mission: Claremont McKenna College is a highly selective, independent, coeducational, residential, undergraduate liberal arts college. Its mission, within the mutually supportive framework of The Claremont Colleges, is to educate its students for thoughtful and productive lives and responsible leadership in business, government, and the professions, and to support faculty and student scholarship that contribute to intellectual vitality and the understanding of public policy issues. The College pursues this mission by providing a liberal arts education that emphasizes economics and political science, a professoriat that is dedicated to effective undergraduate teaching, a close student-teacher relationship that fosters critical inquiry, an active residential and intellectual environment that promotes responsible citizenship, and a program of research institutes and scholarly support that makes possible a faculty of teacher-scholars.

    While we should strive to make other departments better, trying to shift the fundamental goal of the curriculum and environment at CMC would be a huge mistake. It’s better if we sit lower in the rankings and keep our identity and our unique approach to a liberal arts education than try to cater to the East Coast liberal arts elite. If a student is truly interested in studying humanities in the traditional liberal arts sense, CMC is not the school for him/her.

    @recruiters?: Last I checked, 6 CMC seniors are going to work at bulge bracket banks + 3 at elite boutiques (though I will acknowledge no thanks to career services for any of those).

  • Circles Guy

    http://www.braintrack.com/college/u/claremont-mckenna-college

    Liberal Arts Majors: 167

    Other Majors: 112

    POINT: It’s pretty well balanced…. (and many of liberal arts majors are not gov/econ)

    http://cmc.edu/academic/faculty/

    Econ Staff: 30
    Math: 22
    Gov: 28
    Lit: 12
    Science: 50
    Language: 18

    POINT: It’s pretty well balanced…

  • Circles Guy

    http://www.braintrack.com/college/u/claremont-mckenna-college

    Liberal Arts Majors: 167

    Other Majors: 112

    POINT: It’s pretty well balanced…. (and many of liberal arts majors are not gov/econ)

    http://cmc.edu/academic/faculty/

    Econ Staff: 30
    Math: 22
    Gov: 28
    Lit: 12
    Science: 50
    Language: 18

    POINT: It’s pretty well balanced…

  • Ummm…

    @disagree as a non gov or econ major who plans on pursuing an MBA after graduating from CMC I say BS to the idea that you have to major in either econ or gov to go into business or government. If you go back and read the statement you yourself posted carefully, you will realize that “business, government and the professions” covers basically the enitre spectrum of job opportunities for ANY college graduate. I’m not saying slash and burn the econ and gov departments, but at least grow the other departments proportionatly and let them have say in their own hiring decisions. Our school walks on a delicate line in terms of leanign to far towards econ and gov, and that is one balance that we MUST be careful to mantain. WE CANNOT LET CMC BECOME A TRADE SCHOOL. It will ruin this place that we all love so dearly.

    • Jillian

      yes, thank you.

      Also… I fear that the forum has become a place where if anyone offers any type of new critique, people shout

      “if you don’t like it the way it is, get the eff out.”

      Can we try to be more civil and accepting? The exchange of intelligent ideas is a big deal at CMC.

    • George Benson

      When CMC was founded, there was only one major: Political Economy.

  • Ummm…

    @disagree as a non gov or econ major who plans on pursuing an MBA after graduating from CMC I say BS to the idea that you have to major in either econ or gov to go into business or government. If you go back and read the statement you yourself posted carefully, you will realize that “business, government and the professions” covers basically the enitre spectrum of job opportunities for ANY college graduate. I’m not saying slash and burn the econ and gov departments, but at least grow the other departments proportionatly and let them have say in their own hiring decisions. Our school walks on a delicate line in terms of leanign to far towards econ and gov, and that is one balance that we MUST be careful to mantain. WE CANNOT LET CMC BECOME A TRADE SCHOOL. It will ruin this place that we all love so dearly.

    • Jillian

      yes, thank you.

      Also… I fear that the forum has become a place where if anyone offers any type of new critique, people shout

      “if you don’t like it the way it is, get the eff out.”

      Can we try to be more civil and accepting? The exchange of intelligent ideas is a big deal at CMC.

    • George Benson

      When CMC was founded, there was only one major: Political Economy.

  • Ummm…

    @ cricles guy, those numbers dont take into account visiting profs (we have a massive number of visting econ profs and no history or lit for example)

  • Ummm…

    @ cricles guy, those numbers dont take into account visiting profs (we have a massive number of visting econ profs and no history or lit for example)

  • Circles Guy

    http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/campaign/

    The school is doing something…

  • Circles Guy

    http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/campaign/

    The school is doing something…

  • prospie

    i get that cmc provides a great, unique college experience compared to big schools and stuffy east coast schools. but can someone explain how it compares to the other 5 claremont colleges in areas other than gov/econ? does it really give you a better experience and faculty contact than, say, pomona? if you’re doing science, does it matter if you go to cmc vs pitzer or scripps? (joint science)

    • That depends

      I guess it would depend on the person and what you want to do. The 5C’s all have their own distinct vibe. In a nutshell, Scripps is a well-rounded women’s college, CMC is more econ/business, and Pitzer is more of a social activist type place. However, those are all kind of stereotypes and bottom line is you get a mix of different stuff at all three.

      • prospie

        I know quite a bit about the differences in social culture from visits. However, CMC consistently ranks above Scripps and Pitzer over all (its comparison to Pomona is more tenuous, and perhaps on this forum, controversial). So social vibe aside (it’s obviously important but not what I am curious about right now), will a CMC, Scripps, or Pitzer degree be better in the long run? Comments here suggest CMC is better known, higher ranked, more respected, etc. But for a science student would this benefit come through considering you are getting the same education as Pitzer and Scripps (through Joint Science)

        • Hi

          I’d recommend CMC for the stated reasons. Scripps is held in pretty high regard and has some great networking opportunities, but in my experience, CMC’s are better and more open, and our career service rocks. You’ll get the same education if you get a science major, as thats all under JSD, but the connections and job opportunities are a tad better with CMC. If you are going into medicine, the schools all have different feeder programs, but I don’t think any school has any advantage over the other as med schools view you mostly as a JSD student, not a PZ, SCR, or CMC student.

  • prospie

    i get that cmc provides a great, unique college experience compared to big schools and stuffy east coast schools. but can someone explain how it compares to the other 5 claremont colleges in areas other than gov/econ? does it really give you a better experience and faculty contact than, say, pomona? if you’re doing science, does it matter if you go to cmc vs pitzer or scripps? (joint science)

    • That depends

      I guess it would depend on the person and what you want to do. The 5C’s all have their own distinct vibe. In a nutshell, Scripps is a well-rounded women’s college, CMC is more econ/business, and Pitzer is more of a social activist type place. However, those are all kind of stereotypes and bottom line is you get a mix of different stuff at all three.

      • prospie

        I know quite a bit about the differences in social culture from visits. However, CMC consistently ranks above Scripps and Pitzer over all (its comparison to Pomona is more tenuous, and perhaps on this forum, controversial). So social vibe aside (it’s obviously important but not what I am curious about right now), will a CMC, Scripps, or Pitzer degree be better in the long run? Comments here suggest CMC is better known, higher ranked, more respected, etc. But for a science student would this benefit come through considering you are getting the same education as Pitzer and Scripps (through Joint Science)

        • Hi

          I’d recommend CMC for the stated reasons. Scripps is held in pretty high regard and has some great networking opportunities, but in my experience, CMC’s are better and more open, and our career service rocks. You’ll get the same education if you get a science major, as thats all under JSD, but the connections and job opportunities are a tad better with CMC. If you are going into medicine, the schools all have different feeder programs, but I don’t think any school has any advantage over the other as med schools view you mostly as a JSD student, not a PZ, SCR, or CMC student.

  • First Post?

    While the recruiting that takes place at CMC is not quite on the same level as that at Stanford or Harvard, our graduates don’t necessarily have an impossible time finding jobs. Maybe I’m mistaken, but I think CMC students find internships and jobs pretty successfully. It might take a little more effort for our students to get a job relative to Ivy Leaguers, but I’m sure there are plenty of firms that would love to hire CMCers.

  • First Post?

    While the recruiting that takes place at CMC is not quite on the same level as that at Stanford or Harvard, our graduates don’t necessarily have an impossible time finding jobs. Maybe I’m mistaken, but I think CMC students find internships and jobs pretty successfully. It might take a little more effort for our students to get a job relative to Ivy Leaguers, but I’m sure there are plenty of firms that would love to hire CMCers.

  • Shane K.

    I would have to disagree with this article. the idea that “We are a specialized school masquerading as a liberal arts college” is false. We are a specialized school who is very open about our specialization. I, like many of you, came to this school precisely because of its strong focus on government, economics and leadership. I have to agree with the earlier commentator who said we risk becoming “watered down” if we expand too far into other departments.
    Some of the other comments have implied that they like the atmosphere here, but would like more variety in subject matter. The problem with that is that the atmosphere is created by the ambitious, determined “leaders in the making” who comprise the student body. If we stop specializing on attracting these types of students, we risk losing the adored atmosphere as well…and less face it, no one wants to end up with the kind of campus ethos you can currently find on the south side of sixth street.

    • hmm

      What does this say about those of us who are not gov/econ majors, nor wish to pursue it in our future careers/lives? Did we make a bad, ill-informed choice? Are we only “settling” for CMC because we couldn’t get into an Ivy League or Pomona? Is our fit into the “CMC culture” alone a substitute for getting a quality non-gov/econ education?

  • Shane K.

    I would have to disagree with this article. the idea that “We are a specialized school masquerading as a liberal arts college” is false. We are a specialized school who is very open about our specialization. I, like many of you, came to this school precisely because of its strong focus on government, economics and leadership. I have to agree with the earlier commentator who said we risk becoming “watered down” if we expand too far into other departments.
    Some of the other comments have implied that they like the atmosphere here, but would like more variety in subject matter. The problem with that is that the atmosphere is created by the ambitious, determined “leaders in the making” who comprise the student body. If we stop specializing on attracting these types of students, we risk losing the adored atmosphere as well…and less face it, no one wants to end up with the kind of campus ethos you can currently find on the south side of sixth street.

    • hmm

      What does this say about those of us who are not gov/econ majors, nor wish to pursue it in our future careers/lives? Did we make a bad, ill-informed choice? Are we only “settling” for CMC because we couldn’t get into an Ivy League or Pomona? Is our fit into the “CMC culture” alone a substitute for getting a quality non-gov/econ education?

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  • disagree

    @ummm…

    I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. I did not mean that we should have only government and econ majors. I agree that one does not have to study econ or government at the undergrad level in order to have a successful career in government or business. However, CMC was designed so that its students would have a concrete understanding of economics or government even if they majored in something else. I think we should be comfortable with the idea that we go to a unique school that gives us a great educational experience and we shouldn’t try to change based on what US News and World Report dictates to be the best. We are the best at what we do: mixing the liberal arts with grounding in econ and gov.

  • disagree

    @ummm…

    I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. I did not mean that we should have only government and econ majors. I agree that one does not have to study econ or government at the undergrad level in order to have a successful career in government or business. However, CMC was designed so that its students would have a concrete understanding of economics or government even if they majored in something else. I think we should be comfortable with the idea that we go to a unique school that gives us a great educational experience and we shouldn’t try to change based on what US News and World Report dictates to be the best. We are the best at what we do: mixing the liberal arts with grounding in econ and gov.

  • dumb

    i don’t see the reason to expand our departments when there are the 5 colleges and you can take classes at any other school. to replicate what other schools already have would be counterproductive.

    what holds us back in rankings is not attracting students, it is the “peer review” category. basically they ask other university presidents to say what they think of us, and the east coast liberal arts colleges that have been around forever will always say they think each other are the best, that’s just the way it is. hiring 4 more lit profs isn’t going to change their mind, it’s historical. on pure numbers–our students grades, test scores, selectivity, etc–we equal, if not outperform many of the amhersts and williams’s of the world and certainly the middleburys and haverfords.

  • dumb

    i don’t see the reason to expand our departments when there are the 5 colleges and you can take classes at any other school. to replicate what other schools already have would be counterproductive.

    what holds us back in rankings is not attracting students, it is the “peer review” category. basically they ask other university presidents to say what they think of us, and the east coast liberal arts colleges that have been around forever will always say they think each other are the best, that’s just the way it is. hiring 4 more lit profs isn’t going to change their mind, it’s historical. on pure numbers–our students grades, test scores, selectivity, etc–we equal, if not outperform many of the amhersts and williams’s of the world and certainly the middleburys and haverfords.

  • First Principles

    I would like to question the premise on which this entire article is based:

    What is the virtue of increasing our US News ranking?

  • First Principles

    I would like to question the premise on which this entire article is based:

    What is the virtue of increasing our US News ranking?

  • Angela

    A few points as an alum:

    Not one mention in the article or comments about the Psychology Department. Correct me if I’m wrong, but as a member of the class of 2009, I was under the impression that after the Government/Econ students, Psychology majors were third. I mention this because in the field of Psychology, CMC could definitely stand to boost its brand recognition. Students who major in psychology lack a strong clinical background (Org Psych anyone?). Sorry, but because you take Abnormal Psych does not qualify you to be a strong social/clinical services provider. Outside the Government/Econ fields, I would argue that grad schools and business are hard pressed to recognize the CMC experience, particularly if these schools and business are small-scale or new ventures. Those outside of large government or corporate ventures will need to be convinced of the rigor and uniqueness of the CMC education.

    On the other hand, a Psych major from USC will have a leg up on job and grad school apps, even though I know my academic background was more rigorous because their Psychology background may be more expansive in breadth, or more “traditional/clinical” and therefore its value recognizable. I may or may not get the chance to explain in the interview exactly what I learned in Prof Krauss’s awesome Forensic Psych class, which taught me to think critically about the intersection between law and human behavior.

    I mention Psychology specifically, because many students go to CMC intending to be leaders in government/public service and transition into Psychology. Social service agencies (public and private) are in desperate need of the competent exceptional talent that CMC psychology students would bring. However, because these agencies have not heard of CMC, and certainly not the rigor or unique perspective it gives its Psychology students/potential social services leaders, it automatically devalues the student’s degree.

    I believe this experience is typical to those students who do not go into more traditional CMC fields. Many students do go here intending to be an Econ/Finance major and fall in love with Religious Studies or History. Sure, they can take classes in more developed departments at other schools, but unless they “off-campus major” their degree will ultimately say “CMC” not Pomona. CMC means a lot more in econ/gov corporate/national/large ventures than anywhere else. Maybe it should stay meaning more in those fields. But let’s not forget we are educating future leaders with a liberal arts background. These leaders should be able to market the transferrable skills with more ease into other fields besides those CMC traditionally aims at. This ease can be facilitated by a strongly developed department.

    • Psych

      Hi Angela. I know CMC has been drastically improving its psych department in recent years. But Scripps has a great program in place already. As for clinical work, CMC has the autism center and Scripps has some great connections, and both schools have clinical classes. I can’t comment on the name recognition.

  • Angela

    A few points as an alum:

    Not one mention in the article or comments about the Psychology Department. Correct me if I’m wrong, but as a member of the class of 2009, I was under the impression that after the Government/Econ students, Psychology majors were third. I mention this because in the field of Psychology, CMC could definitely stand to boost its brand recognition. Students who major in psychology lack a strong clinical background (Org Psych anyone?). Sorry, but because you take Abnormal Psych does not qualify you to be a strong social/clinical services provider. Outside the Government/Econ fields, I would argue that grad schools and business are hard pressed to recognize the CMC experience, particularly if these schools and business are small-scale or new ventures. Those outside of large government or corporate ventures will need to be convinced of the rigor and uniqueness of the CMC education.

    On the other hand, a Psych major from USC will have a leg up on job and grad school apps, even though I know my academic background was more rigorous because their Psychology background may be more expansive in breadth, or more “traditional/clinical” and therefore its value recognizable. I may or may not get the chance to explain in the interview exactly what I learned in Prof Krauss’s awesome Forensic Psych class, which taught me to think critically about the intersection between law and human behavior.

    I mention Psychology specifically, because many students go to CMC intending to be leaders in government/public service and transition into Psychology. Social service agencies (public and private) are in desperate need of the competent exceptional talent that CMC psychology students would bring. However, because these agencies have not heard of CMC, and certainly not the rigor or unique perspective it gives its Psychology students/potential social services leaders, it automatically devalues the student’s degree.

    I believe this experience is typical to those students who do not go into more traditional CMC fields. Many students do go here intending to be an Econ/Finance major and fall in love with Religious Studies or History. Sure, they can take classes in more developed departments at other schools, but unless they “off-campus major” their degree will ultimately say “CMC” not Pomona. CMC means a lot more in econ/gov corporate/national/large ventures than anywhere else. Maybe it should stay meaning more in those fields. But let’s not forget we are educating future leaders with a liberal arts background. These leaders should be able to market the transferrable skills with more ease into other fields besides those CMC traditionally aims at. This ease can be facilitated by a strongly developed department.

    • Psych

      Hi Angela. I know CMC has been drastically improving its psych department in recent years. But Scripps has a great program in place already. As for clinical work, CMC has the autism center and Scripps has some great connections, and both schools have clinical classes. I can’t comment on the name recognition.

  • response

    @Angela

    you should go to psych grad school. it is pretty hard to get clinical psych jobs with just a BA regardless of what school you go to. if you apply to PhD in psych programs or PsychD programs, I guarantee they will know CMC. you will have no problem getting into top schools (as long as you did well at CMC) and you will then have name recognition. plus you will have a hell of a lot better education coming in and better background going forward than the douches from large research universities. oh, and you had fun in college… let’s not underestimate the value of that.

    • douche

      this was good til the douche part which makes you sound like one

  • response

    @Angela

    you should go to psych grad school. it is pretty hard to get clinical psych jobs with just a BA regardless of what school you go to. if you apply to PhD in psych programs or PsychD programs, I guarantee they will know CMC. you will have no problem getting into top schools (as long as you did well at CMC) and you will then have name recognition. plus you will have a hell of a lot better education coming in and better background going forward than the douches from large research universities. oh, and you had fun in college… let’s not underestimate the value of that.

    • douche

      this was good til the douche part which makes you sound like one

  • Water what down?

    I never understand the articles about becoming a watered down pomona. If Pam Gann’s effort is to increase our endowment (something she has done despite all of her many cons), then CMC should have the resources to improve all of its departments.

    How does increasing department efficiency/standards/prestige of other areas than econ/gov detract from the overall value of the school? If our school already has those departments, aren’t we already somewhat of a “watered-down pomona?” We’ll still be an econ/gov specialized school, but our other departments will just be more effective at educating the diverse population at CMC. I guarantee that as long as we don’t detract from the econ/gov department by bettering the others, (hence the increase in our endowment) our school will remain an econ/gov specialized institution but our rankings will increase.

    This simply can not be seen as a bad thing.

  • Water what down?

    I never understand the articles about becoming a watered down pomona. If Pam Gann’s effort is to increase our endowment (something she has done despite all of her many cons), then CMC should have the resources to improve all of its departments.

    How does increasing department efficiency/standards/prestige of other areas than econ/gov detract from the overall value of the school? If our school already has those departments, aren’t we already somewhat of a “watered-down pomona?” We’ll still be an econ/gov specialized school, but our other departments will just be more effective at educating the diverse population at CMC. I guarantee that as long as we don’t detract from the econ/gov department by bettering the others, (hence the increase in our endowment) our school will remain an econ/gov specialized institution but our rankings will increase.

    This simply can not be seen as a bad thing.

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