- Carl Peaslee on Summer Stories Series: "The form is fixed now. It is at the bottom of the post...."
- Kelsey Brown on Letters to Freshmen: The High School Sweetheart: "I believe what she meant was that if you are consumed by your relation..."
- missed the point on Letters to Freshmen: The High School Sweetheart: "I think my name says it..."
- in a relationship on Letters to Freshmen: The High School Sweetheart: "why can't someone feel satisfied with their relationship and be happy ..."
- Jillian on Pimp My Campus: "oooh, new walkway! so excited to see it when I get back!!..."
An Open Letter on Dating to My Fellow CMCers
Dear CMC,
Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about why it is that so few people at the Claremont Colleges go on dates. It has always struck me as odd that I’ve searched far and wide for an answer, and so far, I have turned up empty with an explanation. And so, I’ve donned my Crocodile Hunter outfit – watch the Stag stalk his Scrippsie prey – to seek out some answers. But, as usual, I’ve come away with more questions.
The consensus seems to be that, on the whole, we’re too busy drinking and hooking up to wander down to the sleepy Claremont Village for dinner and a movie. Or, as one football player alum put it less charitably, CMC is a “drunken orgy country club that puts the collapsing Roman Empire to shame” – something that he, by the way, didn’t mind when he attended. Everyone seems to favor dating, in theory, and yet, few seem to be dating in practice. It seems that even Professor Charles Kesler has thrown his hat into the ring when he suggested that freeing up everyone equally turns out to be bad for women.
But surely not everyone is hooking up. And, not entirely clear that everyone wants to, either.
Indeed, sometimes it seems as if CMC, in the political economy of female attention, has reverted to a kind polygamy. On the one hand, there seem to be men who get far too much female attention. (Heaven help those lucky fools.) On the other, there seem to be beta males that cannot get any female attention. And women it seems must either play the game with the alpha males or risk falling out of the ranks of beautiful people. The dating equilibrium seems hopelessly out of whack.
And those couples that do form, by accident or by careful planning, seem more like arranged marriages than healthy, college couples. Some couples move in together and seem so tightly bound together that it is tough to consider them as separate entities. It’s all too short a jump from being Facebook official to sharing that utterly small twin size bed. Still other couples seem to be apologizing for their success. How often have you heard those who are in serious relationships say, “Oh, we don’t want to label it”? Why not? Is there a fear that, once labeled, others will try to get involved and ruin it?
I’m not suggesting that we have some kind of Fiddler on the Roof scenario with a matchmaker sitting in judgment of who should date who, but really, couldn’t we do better than the hot or not scale? Nor am I suggesting that we return to the days when the CMC yearbook ranked the prettiest Scripps girls– although I volunteer myself for such a job should it present itself. And the days when the CMC guys boorishly sang dirty songs on Scripps’s campus are thankfully long behind us.
There’s simply got to be a better way out there than people drunkenly and sloppily having sex, stalking each other on Facebook and then texting for booty calls late at night? And maybe – just maybe – the pinnacle of social activity on a Friday night isn’t a game of beirut with Natty Ice. This stuff, before long, grows tiresome. If college is supposed to be a place where you grow in maturity and wisdom, why does our social life seem more likely to cultivate cave men than the future leaders of tomorrow?
Perhaps our dating behaviors aren’t our conscious decisions at all, but rather product of a market where selfishness is allowed to reign supreme. Why bother dedicating time to knowing somebody and developing a companionship when you can compartmentalize your orgasms to the end of a night after you are done drinking and partying?
There might be a better way, but first we must change the campus culture. But it will require real risks, like rejection, than what we currently have embraced. We should ask ourselves the following questions.
Do we know so much about one another that we have already dismissed a priori the idea that a guy or gal might be more fun (or more interesting) off campus? Has Facebook and the rumor mill given us so much of a window into each other that we dare not go off campus for dining and conversation?
Over at Arizona State University, the Network of Enlightened Women hosts a contest that honors gentlemanly behavior on campus. Women are encouraged to nominate men who were gentlemanly and then a panel makes decisions. Such a contest would seem welcome at CMC, where every year the Mr. Stag competition seems more fit for a Cougars’ Night at the Bar than for a college whose motto boasts at least a tangential connection to “civilization.” (Imagine, for a moment the ire if some enterprising CMCer wanted to create a Ms. Athena and that it culminated in a strip show. Oh wait, we don’t have to imagine that…)
Now I suspect that there will be quite a few people that argue that the men here are boorish or that women are teases, but the truth is that you won’t know that until you’ve gone on a date or two.
Yours,
Charles Johnson
More posts by Charles »
Charles Johnson
Charles Johnson is a writer for the Forum. He serves as editor emeritus of The Claremont Independent and as founder of the infamous/famous conservative blog, The Claremont Conservative. Most recently, his work has appeared in City Journal, The New York Sun, and BigGovernment.com. When he isn't writing, reading, working, or attending class, he is sleeping.
Recent
56 Comments
2009-09-07
16:37:14
Well, well said Charles. Out of the colleges I've visited and stayed at, it would appear that CMC is not exactly the norm when it comes to relationships. It would seem that the idea of "hook up first, get to know the person later" is the way to go.
I've seen it here, where a girl would rather meet someone at a party than do something simple than go to the village and hang out, or do something outside of the party atmosphere .
And to spare myself before the naysayers, I already have a) someone special who doesn't go to CMC, thank god, and b) no problems/vendettas against anyone.
"Do we know so much about one another that we have already dismissed a priori the idea that a guy or gal might be more fun (or more interesting) off campus? Has Facebook and the rumor mill given us so much of a window into each other that we dare not go off campus for dining and conversation?"
That quote is a prime example of a majority of the people on this campus--for a bunch of supposedly smart people, we sure lack in social smarts.
I guess people are enjoying it while they can--since it doesn't happen like that in the real world. But I guess it goes to show that you can't really expect much in the way of a lasting relationship from most people at CMS.
This is an insightful article, Charles. Well done. It will be interesting to see some of the responses to this, as well as humorous.
2009-09-07
17:30:00
Thanks for the comment, Brian.
I'm curious as to what life might be like at other colleges. Care to elaborate?
2009-09-07
17:55:02
Although it's clear that many people say that they want to date, one questions the sincerity of the sentiment. From my experience it seems that many people, especially women, feel a pressure to seem disinterested in casual hookups. Thus they give the "right" answer that they would prefer to date, rather than marking themselves as someone of lower moral quality.
The system here is based primarily on choice, and many students choose to engage in casual, seemingly random sex. Many others choose to date, although they are usually a little quieter about it. Some may see this system as pernicious or damaging to certain demographics, but the right to make mistakes is a fundamental component of free choice. For all its flaws, real or imagined, this is the system that we have built.
2009-09-07
23:16:44
"Some may see this system as pernicious or damaging to certain demographics, but the right to make mistakes is a fundamental component of free choice."
Isn't this yet another prime example of the limits of libertarian social thought? Consistency for its own sake--with no reference to what is good or how to engender what is good--isn't a really compelling argument for anything, including freedom of choice. Perhaps it's time that colleges, which supposedly seek the truth, try to discover what the right choices are. This seems more reasonable than dogmatically asserting our "freedom of choice"--which tends to celebrate the lowest common denominator, in this case the most promiscuous and shallow among us.
2009-09-09
00:42:55
And who gets to decide what is good? If I and the people I hook up with enjoy being "promiscuous and shallow" in the privacy of our own dorm rooms, who gets to define that as an incorrect choice?
2009-09-09
08:42:25
@ Anonymous, I don't think any of us are debating right or wrong, just the fact that the culture here is mildly skewed towards drunken hookups rather than developing an actual relationship first that isn't completely based off of sex. While that relationship might be fun (which I don't deny), it doesn't usually end up beneficial in the long run.
2009-09-09
13:29:42
It's funny that you think you know what is or is not beneficial in the long run for everybody. Maybe you should spend more time fighting against/for gay marriage and abortions if you know what's best for other people.
2009-09-07
17:58:35
It's hard to go into the numerous details, some of them are pretty nuanced--it's more or less just a difference in culture and attitude, it would seem.
I've had friends at USC, UCD, and had cousins at NYU.
Using those as examples, while there are parties there that are rediculous, they are what they are--a way to go out and have a lot of fun. Sure, there are the hookups, etc, that always happen.
But--some of those very same people, I've seen meet someone, outside of that atmosphere, or through a class, etc, and start dating them, and not be afraid to say so, whether it be through facebook, etc.
I actually noticed that--using the facebook example, around CMC, people don't let other's know they're dating.
Instead, the think its sly to remove "single", and " exclusively hookup", instead, rather than say are in a relationship.
Sure, maybe some people need their lust sated, but let's call a spade a spade. If you're just hooking up with someone, you're not dating them. You don't even really know them that well.
(I'm sure I'll get burned for this example, but shades of Jasmine Fiore, anybody?)
The main point--regardless of what people think about someone, or what your girl/guyfriends opinions are, in the long run, their opinions are essentially worthless. Do what might be the best for yourself.
To end, I'll just paraphrase a conversation I had with a friend last year:
"Haha, wow. That sounds a little complicated, maybe? Jeez."
"No, no...we're exclusively hooking up, just not boyfriend and girlfriend. He doesn't want that label".
"And you haven't seen anyone else?"
"No!"
"What about him? You're positive he's been true to you?"
"I'm pretty certain he doesn't want anyone else..."
LOL. Right, girl. That's why he can't commit to an actual relationship with you. Shows he cares, eh?
But I digress. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing. It will be interesting to see who steps up to the plate in defense of this culture.
2009-09-07
20:49:55
I disagree with that the only dating at CMC occurs through random hookups. I know plenty of people who have actually met their significant other (myself included) at one of our raucous parties. While hookups may be more vocalized, I feel that there is a strong dating culture here when compared with what my East Coast cohorts have experienced at their respective institutions.
Now, of course, my opinion is completely based on anecdotal evidence; however, my friendship with (and knowledge of) many couples on campus gives me reasons to doubt that CMCers are only into hookups, physical attraction, and alpha male-ism when it comes to romantic relationships.
2009-09-07
21:40:54
This article should start:
"Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about why it is that nobody at the Claremont Colleges will date me. It has always struck me as odd that I’ve searched as far and wide as Craigslist.org for an answer, and so far, I have turned up empty with an explanation."
2009-09-07
21:52:40
Pretty empty and vapid response...about as stupid as your name, "James Stag Money". But hey, if personal attacks are your game...and I'm never usually one to defend Charles. So this is a lot, coming from me.
2009-09-07
22:19:10
Now, James, you wouldn't have a substantive argument, here would you now...
Or would you just prefer snark to substance?
2009-09-07
23:09:43
James, we hope girls learn to avoid jerks like you.
2009-09-07
21:50:21
If you're knocking me for dating girls I meet on Craigslist, all I have to say is, "It's been a lot of fun."
2009-09-07
21:52:00
But next time you should check your sources. I'm in a relationship (outside of Claremont).
2009-09-08
10:11:47
Thank you, Charles, for bringing up this issue. I am a grandmother and am extremely concerned about "youngsters" relationships. I am most concerned about how the next generation will be raised. The security of long term, committed relationships is extremely important for individuals to mature and prosper. It doesn't matter whether that relationship starts by arrangement or a "hook up." The important thing is commitment for better or worse, sickness or health, etc. It is extremely difficult to concentrate on life's important matters, like survival, when you are focused on whether anyone will be there to help when you are ill, broke or just sad.
2009-09-08
12:58:20
I disagree with the premise that the dating scene at the 5C's is in shambles relative to other colleges. The hook up culture is somewhat ingrained is us for these four years but found myself doing a double take when I realized that 5 of my 8 apartment mates were in a relationship.
While the dating situation on campus isn't ideal, there are many ways around it and there are many more ways to meet interesting people.
I think the major issue is that people of our age group generally aren't looking for a future spouse. We are all young and most of us go to a school far from home and most of us will leave Claremont after we graduate. Inherently, this isn't a great environment to search for a long term partner as most of us will leave.
Also our age plays into this. People are getting married later and later and few truly need that long term monogamous relationship this early in their lives. It is great if one finds a keeper but I feel that few people are actively searching for a long term partner, though they will consider "dating" someone whom they strongly connect with. Meanwhile, people will go out and experiment/hook up with others and sometimes, sparks will fly within these casual flings and relationships will start.
The real issue here is that their seem to be two types of courtship processes at the 5Cs. One entails meeting an interesting person at an interesting student organization/class/other social situation and then asking them on a date. The other entails the drunken hookups. I feel that the hookup crowd is simply more vocal than the typical date crowd, and this skews people's perspectives. There are a lot of couples across the 5Cs, but many keep their affairs to themselves.
Another great thing the 5Cs has going for them is that there are so many places to meet interesting people and there are so many potentially great date areas in the vicinity. $6 tuesday student tickets at the Claremont movie theater, the plethora of concert arenas in our vicinity, non alcoholic campus events, dance classes/teams, etc. Even though most of the social life is centered around campus, we have some great opportunities here to connect with others. I forget the stat but I think something like 1/2 of all CMCers meet their future spouse at the 5Cs. There isn't a dating issue on campus, its just that the vocal nature of the drunken hookup culture skews people's perceptions.
2009-09-08
14:00:45
@ Matt, good writing. Maybe it is a matter of perspective. Then again, maybe not. Hard to tell.
And the whole 1/2 CMCers meeting their future spouse here? I'm fairly certain that was in the past, older generations. I've rarely seen a majority of couples end up anywhere past CMC, let alone marriage.
2009-09-09
00:10:57
There's just no way that is true
2009-09-09
00:11:21
"I forget the stat but I think something like 1/2 of all CMCers meet their future spouse at the 5Cs. "
There's just no way that is true
2009-09-09
08:43:42
Honestly. Maybe in some past generation. In this day and age, I believe the number of people from the 5cs that end up married together are few and far between.
2009-09-09
12:54:30
yeah, I'm with Lauren. you basically find some of everything at the 5c's (committed couples, not-so-committed couples, casual hookups, "it's complicated", one night stands, you name it.)
A friend of mine back East suggested to me once that maybe we were missing out on not having that sorority-frat culture. You know, the one where there is more social pressure and 99999 formals per year (that basically end in the same result as a North Quad party anyway) except that you have to go get your name on a list and find a date to bring to the gropefest. CMC looks pretty good from where I'm standing.
2009-09-09
19:47:05
Charles Blow of the New York Times would beg to differ that CMC is the only school with students that seem to favor hooking up over "real" relationships:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/opinion/13blow.html
It's not just a CMC thing (if it is at all); it's a college thing.
2009-09-09
23:08:13
I'm not suggesting that this is only a CMC wide problem, but it does strike me as having a particular flavor here.
2009-09-10
11:31:28
it's pathetic how you think the way other people conduct their personal lives constitutes a "problem."
2009-09-10
20:17:16
I'm sorry, but I just read my emails that suggest there is going to be free campus-wide STD testing and I'm saddened by the fact that the school feels a need to promote that.
You'd think that the future leaders of tomorrow would be more inclined to feel their minds with knowledge then to fill their bodies, with, er... other stuff.
To each his own, but some of us would rather something different.
2009-09-10
02:18:27
I was talking with my roommate about this subject and seeing as even those on campus that do 'date' simply hook-up exclusively and eat meals together. We would like to see a throw-back to the past by replacing all "dating" couples to couples that are "going steady". Besides is there anything more satisfying than asking someone if they'll go steady with you. What does go mean? Up to you. How long is steady? Depends on how long you can keep things from tipping over. Have fun with it you youngstas you.
2009-09-10
20:26:33
I like the phrase "going steady". I think someone has watched too much Mad Men. Speaking of which, how crazy has this season been?
Anyways, I was reading about dating back in high school in the early 1950s and the really funny practice of "pinning" your girl back in the day. (You'd give her a pin and she would wear it as a signal to others that you were "going steady.")
Of course such conversation is heteronormative and would probably be banned nowadays...
2009-09-10
02:31:41
But in all seriousness, you surprised me Charles, this is quite a nice little article. I think if anything, it speaks to the student body's emotional immaturity that is allowed to flourish, and essentially dominate the campus.
Don't see this changing for quite a while.
2009-09-10
20:31:34
Old timer2,
Thanks for the kind words.
I don't either, but such is life.
2009-09-10
20:34:05
Agreed, @ old timer. It's interesting that at such a bright and intellectually prized campus, in terms of emotional maturity, the campus body is severely lacking.
2009-09-11
11:11:44
Charles, you are the worst hypocrite to walk the CMC campus.
2009-09-11
16:04:31
I would engage with this, but I think we're all hypocrites and sinners and wish that the person leveling the charge would be more, well, factual.
2009-09-12
09:40:35
LOL. Nice try, what. But alot of the people I see who are around CMC campus are hypocrites and shallow themselves...maybe you should respond to the arguments in the article?
2009-09-11
12:19:16
If I may point something out: The fact that someone is a hypocrite doesn't necessarily make them wrong.
2009-09-12
14:42:18
Well said Charles Johnson. Lately this subject has been permeating many of my conversations. Here is another article written on the topic...perhaps revealing that these activities are similar throughout schools.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/fashion/08love.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=let's%20not%20get%20to%20know%20each%20other&st=cse
2009-09-13
21:25:07
You know, it seems that lots of people complain about the hookup culture, but a lot of these same people also perpetrate it. I think it would be really great if someone published a "In defense of hookups" article on the forum as a sort of rebuttal. Come on, I know that there is at least SOMEONE on the forum task who would be up to the task. Hell who knows, maybe we could have a student debate on the topic in the future. It would be bound to be entertaining
2009-09-14
10:07:32
Way to make me into a prude, Bryce.
Presumably I would be arguing against hookups? Okay, I'll do it. For God and country and taste. Cheers.
2009-09-15
22:04:37
Charles, this has to be the only thing I agree with you on. I must say that it was brave of you to write this, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is somewhat horrified by the way that relationships usually go down at CMC.
2009-09-17
09:40:45
As a recent alumna from CMC who is dating a graduated "Mudder" since before freshman year, I have a somewhat skewed take on CMC dating culture (seeing as how I'm not really a part of it... haha).
That being said, I've done some psych research on dating at small-liberal arts colleges (for my own personal edification). Some things to note from the research that would be interesting to validate at CMC (or invalidate).
The more committed to their careers, the less likely a college woman is to be in a committed relationship (I can find the reference for this if you want). As a college dedicated to the professions, and the culture of career-building in every department, women at CMC might be more likely than other women at other colleges to prefer "random hookups."
The male/female ratio at CMC is higher than other liberal arts colleges. This means that the dominant culture will more reflect the values and preferences of males than other colleges. Now, granted that there is heterogeneity in any culture, the culture of a college-aged male is one typified by casual relationships.
That being said about male culture, the dating culture at Harvey Mudd is quite different. While (believe it or not), there is a lot of random hooking up (inter-Mudd hookups, as well as the stereotypical Mudd-Scripp co-mingling), "dating" in the traditional term seems more prevalent at Mudd. It seems that once a Mudd guy hooks up with a girl, it quickly progresses from hooking up every weekend to steady "dating." That means dinners off campus (although dining hall dates are still expected), trips to the movies, coffee in the village...
You may extrapolate from that what you will, but there is a clear difference in dating culture, at least among the campuses.
2009-09-17
09:42:31
I realize now that my Mudd example contradicts what I was trying to say about CMC male-dominated dating culture. I think we would agree that (heterogeneity again granted) there the male culture at Mudd is quite different from the male culture at CMC.
2009-09-30
22:33:11
I want the record to show that at least two people went on a date after this article was published.
The gentleman who asked out the gentlewoman used my name as he solicited her. He did not get a second date, but is officially a man for having the temerity to ask her out.
That is all. Carry on.
2009-10-03
10:15:20
After skimming all of these comments I seem to feel that most people would not be opposed to more full on dating at the 5C's... so why don't we make it happen!? Every semester most of the 5C's throw an SYR; instead of the party planning committee laughing it off and not really encouraging the procuring of dates maybe they should this year. If enough kids started getting into it, most of CMC would too.
I would suggest though that some sort of arrangement for people living in singles is arranged though.
Come on CMC! We can make it happen!
2009-10-03
14:17:21
@SYR, good idea! But why stop there at SYR? "Screw your roommate" isn't exactly something aptly named for something like dating with someone you'd be interested in.
Why not more things like formals, like Monte Carlo?
2009-10-03
17:52:11
@Brian,
Here, here. Let's see if CMCers can do a classy night.
2009-12-02
09:02:42
[...] unexamined life is not worth living” and—I think—why there was such a positive response to Charles’ open letter. Perhaps all of us—myself included—need to better appreciate how hard it is to forge meaning [...]
2009-12-02
22:02:54
As an alum, now out in the big bad world, I have been thinking a lot about what CMC (or maybe just college in general) was like vs. the real world.
As a person that hooked up with some girls at CMC and even ended up in 2 long term relationships, oddly, I now find myself in my mid-20's and I have literally never asked a girl out on a date before having hooked up with her.
While this ethic could in theory work in the real world, all it really gets you is bottom of the barrel sluts from the bar. Real girls that I would actually want to be with don't really do this in the real world it seems. Now I guess I have to learn to summon the courage and charm to ask girls out on dates...
Guess that's one thing CMC didn't prepare me for.
2009-12-03
01:06:51
This is a well-written, emotionally mature opinion.
I agree.
I....
I actually agree completely with Charles Johnson on something.
If my head explodes as a result I will be mildly upset.
2009-12-04
01:59:02
I'm honored, but I think maybe you should get your opinions of me from the source rather than the commentary.
2009-12-04
04:07:09
Hahaha.
How charmingly condescending.
I appreciate your helpful advice, but I make it a point to do my research firsthand, and I've read your pieces, Mr. Johnson.
Believe me, my opinion of your work is based purely on what you've written. You require no distortion.
2009-12-07
18:40:03
Everyone's a critic, but few produce as much to pin them to as I do.
In any event, thanks for the readership. I appreciate it.
2009-12-05
21:26:15
I am pretty sure no one dates because there are like 10 hot chicks and 200 decent looking guys going after them.
2009-12-06
21:48:04
Hahahaha Nice! Yes, many of the women at CMC need to get off their high horse and realize that they are not *quite* as attractive as their attitudes merit. Maybe they haven't heard us guys use the term "Claremont Hot" before...but it says something.
My point? They should be a little less snobbish, and more willing to cultivate actual friendships rather than just pick and choose who they think they can hook up with, or who is "their type".
Who knows, you might make a life-long friend--because god knows alumm is right, there really are only a handful of girls who are actually good looking.
2009-12-06
13:56:51
"And maybe – just maybe – the pinnacle of social activity on a Friday night isn’t a game of beirut with Natty Ice. This stuff, before long, grows tiresome. If college is supposed to be a place where you grow in maturity and wisdom, why does our social life seem more likely to cultivate cave men than the future leaders of tomorrow?"
...if only more people realized this...
2009-12-06
20:46:45
A note to all the decent looking guys freaking out because none of the 10 hot-ish girls will date them: DON'T WORRY, real life isn't like that. Stay strong and don't settle, unless you plan on moving to bumfuck, nowhere after college.
Also want to agree with The Truth above, that is very true.
2009-12-13
19:46:56
Hey everyone!
My name is Gary, I just wanted to introduce myself since I am new to these forums...
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I'm a Hair-sample Matcher and devoted father.
The things I love most in life are family, friends and racing.
On week days you'll usually find me working. On the weekends I like to party and watch nascar.
My idea of the perfect day would start with a morning jog. And then I'd go to the park. Later I'd eat a great dinner from uGO FlameDisk. And I'd top it all off by snuggling with my girlfriend.
I also love snoop videos.
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Thanks